Oct/11
2013

My 'adventure' with the Ordo Templi Orientis

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

My first interest in the Ordo Templi Orientis sprang from my unquenchable thirst for knowledge - in March 2011, I had acquired the Thoth Tarot deck (having gone through several different 'paths' previously), and having blazed through all the literature that I could find on it, I sought more.

Certainly, I may have not understood much at the time, but I had an insatiable curiosity within me as to where the cards could lead me. I read about the O.T.O., saw that it was in possession of all of Crowley's texts and publications, and I made contact.

My first meeting was with two members of the local camp. They seemed rather knowledgeable, although declined to reveal much about the inner workings of the order, alluding to some 'greater' mystery, as I recall it. They also refused to speak of numbers, as they probably knew that nobody would be interested in joining a 2-man group (as they then were). Not knowing better, I bought this story, and sought initiation.

It has to be said that in Poland, where I live, the O.T.O. is a rather small (by comparison) outfit. Still, even though my expectations weren't much, I did expect at least some sort of temple, adequate knowledge and studies being made, as well as work being done (in the form of rituals, publications, you know, magic -- after all, that's what the O.T.O. is about, the IX°). It is important to note this, since my attitude towards those issues is key in understanding why I took the path I did, and what pushed me to inquire further.

I was initiated as Minerval on the 19th of November 2011 e.v., in a house rented specifically for this function, far out of any decently populated areas. Without exception, everything was set up very nicely, however I do have to admit that I expected much more from an outfit which proclaims war on the status quo and revolution. Here's a quote from the back of the Centennial Liber AL edition:

Life and Liberty are threatened everywhere.
We need a Watchword and a Banner for the battle.
We need a Principle on which to reconstruct.
And so:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

If you want Freedom you must fight for it.
If you want to Fight you must organize.
If you want to Organize, write to:
[OTO USA address]

I'll be damned if that isn't a call for revolution, especially considering the Third Chapter of Liber AL.

Still, I took the initiation, digested it as well as I could at the time, and in its spirit decided to read further into the O.T.O., its history, current leadership and what I have gotten myself into. After all, it's only reasonable for a newcomer, a guest (and "honored" at that), to want to know more about the group he is about to join with a life-long commitment.

As it turned out, the O.T.O. proper, which was the one Crowley had lead in his time, had died alongside it's last leader, Karl Germer. Then in 1969, Grady McMurtry re-established the Ordo Templi Orientis as Caliph. Without going into the complex politics which followed, namely the lawsuits between McMurtry and Motta as to the legitimacy of their O.T.O. and copyright claims, I found that the O.T.O. I was told I joined simply wasn't it. In fact, it was so much not it that I began questioning how I even got there.

Here's Thelemapedia (which is maintained by O.T.O. folks, by the way):

Germer died in 1962 without himself naming a successor. In 1969, Grady McMurtry invoked his emergency authorization from Crowley and assumed the title of Caliph, which Crowley had granted him. He began performing intiations in 1970.


In short, the OTO didn't exist at all for 7 years.

As you can see, the O.T.O. as such didn't exist outside of the minds of a few people once Germer was gone. Lineage was broken, and McMurtry wasn't even a proper O.H.O., but only a "Caliph". Therefore it is folly to treat the Caliphate as identical to the "original" Crowley O.T.O. in any but the most loose terms.

Asking around in my camp got me nowhere, as nobody was willing to talk about these issues (and as I found out later, I was being reported to the national executive (meaning, FSR) for asking these questions). But I reached further, and made contact with two initiates from the states. One of them proved to also be a dear friend and brother within the A∴A∴ who has helped me immensely with my understanding of kaula cults, and later authored the "Fair and Just Inquisition" post on this blog.

The other person wasn't quite as helpful for me personally, however provided valuable information about the spiritual foundations on which the Caliphate was built, and introduced me to it's history by means of the "Black Lodge of Santa Cruz".

There also exists a Thelemic Discussion Group on Facebook which I frequented over this time, finding more and more proof that the Caliphate Ordo Templi Orientis was in fact inept and impotent, both magically and politically.

Some examples of this are found in the lack of property, the dissonance in the philosophy of high-grade members, the extremely weak publishing program, and the very loose approach to the founding documents of the Order (Liber 194 in particular).

Sure, the initiation I got was amazing, and it had a profound impact on me. However what it also did was, it awoke a certain feeling of duty, zeal, towards the Order, which later took the form of resentment and bitterness with time, as nothing was done with these crucial issues. After all, I got involved because I wanted to learn, not because I wanted to pretend to learn.

But I pressed on. I took my time with my own projects. I studied the Tarot in as much depth as I could, and I kept on asking about the A∴A∴, as I by then knew that the O.T.O. didn't have anything to offer me in terms of actual, tangible knowledge or understanding. All I got was a P.O. box address from the back of a publication. That didn't really work for me, as I wanted real people, not some P.O. box with no information about who operates it, and no way to see if the person on the other side is in any way legitimate.

So I kept on searching, and I joined the Ray Eales' A∴A∴ Lineage in April 18th 2012. Without much fuss, I was accepted as a Probationer, and began work. In the meantime, the O.T.O. was (in my eyes) at the verge of breaking down, as information about a Donald Ray Wallace and David Taylor began surfacing. Apparently these fine gentlemen were involved with the Ordo Templi Orientis (I am not certain as to their membership status). I won't go into the details, however it is important to note that they were both convicted of inhumane crimes, while the Leadership of the O.T.O. simply ignored them.

Here's a few sources on those two gents:

This brought hurt on the part of several persons within the order. And yet, the leadership didn't even acknowledge it's failure in filtering out the bad apples until it was really, really pushed by media attention. This really got me started on the way of analyzing the O.T.O. on a deeper level. What I found was rather unpleasant to behold.

First of all, the O.T.O. has a membership of less than ten thousand, which, for an organization which is revolutionary in it's nature, and is supposed to be all about political power, is rather disappointing. Especially when you consider that it's been around for over what, 40 years now?

Secondly, it later turned out that the “Caliph”, who goes by the motto Hymenaeus Beta, decided to change Liber AL vel Legis sf 220. Yes, that's right. The guy who swore not to change the book, is in the process of changing it, essentially on a whim. You can find his (rather weak in my opinion) justification on the O.T.O. IHQ website.

Personally, I have huge doubts about his decision, especially since there is no reason given beyond “the secret chiefs said so”. Which, given the weak financial state of the Order, forces me to assume that it's just a cop-out in order to make a precedent to re-write the Book, and make money from its sales. No to mention that the fact that Liber AL (which itself strictly forbids being changed) now goes around with a paper slip saying that it's being "updated" is just ridiculous.
[pictures coming later, once I manage to get ahold of some OTO people]

Anyway, the months went by, and I focused more on my own work, as there was nothing else I actually could do without my conscience saying "hey dude you're being a doormat".
Now, to give you an example of how certain members of my local body were, just so you know how dedicated most of them are to the goals of the O.T.O.. I won't even go into the issue of no temple space, as that's just incidental to what I perceive as a lack of investment.

First, there were the guys who were initiated alongside me. One broke off almost instantly, stopped showing up at meetings just after a few months, and the other got instantly hooked on the ideas of the O.T.O., and I'm pretty sure he'd do anything for the Order regardless of it's ethical connotations.

Regardless, the latter often proved to be rather inept and immature in terms of daily devotion to his practices, and all I ever heard from him was how the idea of “fraternity” was so “awesome” &c. And then he'd hit me up on Facebook drunkenly and whine about how he had a row with his girl, how he got drunk blind and his buddy was possessed by demons, and all sorts of otherwise irrelevant stuff. Not to mention all the times we'd arrange to meet and do some evocations, and he would either forget or be unavailable. And those were not few at all.

Secondly, there was the Local Body Master. To give you an idea of how disappointing my experience with my local O.T.O. camp was, here's some more on that guy; although fun to be around, the actual work being done in regards to growth and progress was at most minimal.

For one, he always somehow relied on the very bare-bones basics of everything, which was always troubling to me. I'd say something obvious, as a support for my further thoughts, then move on, and when I asked the important questions, I'd just get to hear the obvious part which I had already said, as if that was the conclusion. Mirroring only goes so far when one pursues new knowledge.

I've no doubt that leading a body of the O.T.O. is hard work (provided it grows; ours didn't), however I do have doubts about the efficiency of the LBM. Each and every time I asked about making the camp grow, I would get some crappy cop-out like “now is not the time” or “the camp doesn't grow because a certain persons' attention is elsewhere” – this in reference to the Frater Superior Representative. As if the officers making the camp prosper isn't the idea at all.

There is one thing however, that struck me as odd. When he was preparing his lecture on the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram, he basically gleamed over it in 20 minutes, and that was it (he went to a party the prior evening and "worked" over the LBRP lecture overnight -- not a good way to do a good job). However later, while we were loosely talking, it came up that “banishing” is in fact just invoking the opposite force (which, although might sound nutty, holds water in most cases – I'll write an article about this later on). This struck me very hard, and I am grateful for this idea to him, but wouldn't it be easier to just, you know, make it part of his talk? After all, that's what this is about, no?

Thirdly, there was the yogi. The most hard-working guy of us all, at least as far as I am aware. He was the guy who researched astrology, and with whom I finally got to do some actual magic. We worked the Goetia for several months, and got to discuss the fundamental issues in the politics of the O.T.O. as we actually saw it. I am very glad to be able to still call him my friend. As far as I am currently aware, he has retired from the O.T.O. in recent months for one reason or another.

And then there's the FSR appointed for Poland. From what I gather (he was my initiator), he's a rather busy man, with a lot of work on his hands - translating Crowley, publishing Crowley, giving lectures on the O.T.O., preparing conferences, and all that other stuff he does. Which is wonderful, no doubt about it.

The main problem I see with this set-up that he has is, that it makes him rather unreliable when it comes to dealing with low-level, Man of Earth level stuff. It's like the King forgetting his robes one day, without even realizing it.

One of those compromising situations was, that the lamen of our local body was transliterated to Greek for some reason (a Latin anagram in Greek lettering? Nope, doesn't work). I remember talking to the LBM about this twice, and I was assured that it'd be fixed. However this never happened. Two weeks later, lo and behold, the messed up lamen on Facebook.

Anyway, time passed, and in early June I was going through a phase of deep disappointment in the state of the O.T.O. Suffice to say that a discussion on some rather touchy and uncomfortable (to OTO people) topics began on the Polish Thelema Group on Facebook, with me and few others asking rather simple questions, and getting insulted in return.

The discussion took place here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/147671338606766/permalink/588903874483508/

The topics discussed were really, really basic and fundamental to the philosophy of Thelema - among them was the issue of authority, the import of the A∴A∴ within the context of changing the Book of the Law, and other such important issues which have been well covered by Crowley in his time.

Then, astoundingly quickly I was contacted by the aforementioned FSR, who essentially asked me to explain my stance on these issues, which I did, in what I hold to be a reasonable and rational manner. I was notified of a report on my case being filed immediately, as well as being put on bad report and expelled from the O.T.O. globally.

Holding the FSR to be competent in at least this extent (I mean, come on, he's a high-grade member, for Christs sake), I assumed the report was filed, and awaited my copy of the report, as well as a request for more information from the IHQ. After two months of hearing nothing from the Order, I sent a request for a status update to the Secretary General. To my surprise, nothing was filed against me, which means that I was still on good report. This, as it turns out, isn't all that uncommon a way of getting rid of 'inconvenient' persons.

I confronted the FSR and LBM with this issue. What's funny is, Here in Poland, there is no such thing as a “Man of Earth Triad Representative”, because of the insignificant membership. And the LBM apparently had no idea what to do, as he himself admitted that he's waiting for the FSR's directions. Which means, that the average Man of Earth member of the O.T.O. (in Poland) has no actual way of legally (by O.T.O. rules and regulations) defending himself in such a position.

On the 22nd of August I filed a charge of slander against the FSR in question, given that I was excluded from Order activities without being given any actual reason for it. As the FSR was attending NOTOCON, he replied to me on the 24th, saying that he just finished a 14 hour long trip, and would reply once he rested. Finally, on the 18th (that's one hell of a rest) of September I was notified that I am being "properly" expelled, “on grounds of [my] unfraternal behavior and open hostility regarding the Order, as exhibited in his blog and email exchanges with [the FSR]”.

Pretty interesting, don't you think? But let's re-view this: over the whole course of this exchange, not one time did anyone bring up a proper definition of “unfraternal behavior”. If bringing up facts about the O.T.O. (which have been published for years now, and should be common knowledge among the membership in order to avoid similar screw-ups), and asking questions about the direction it has taken is considered "unfraternal", how can one take this organization seriously at all?

It's not like the O.T.O. addresses the issues that are brought up in any official capacity, ever, either. I wonder whether this isn't because that would force them to acknowledge that these are in fact problems to take care of. But apparently saving face and churning through members by the dozen is the better option, at least from their perspective.

Love is the law, love under will.

Thelemically,
Surgo

P.S. The attached zip file contains the complete e-mail exchange concerning my 'case' in the O.T.O., save for one e-mail to the LBM which went without reply (it was mentioned in one of the e-mails however). Some of them are in Polish, which shouldn't be too big of a problem if you use Google Translate, or a similar application; there aren't many linguistic subtleties in the language used, rather unsurprisingly.

Attachments:

12 comments
Comment from: Adstra [Visitor]

Well, that escalated quickly.

10/17/13 @ 21:18
Comment from: Norman Wheeler [Visitor]

This is brilliant and exposes the sordid underbelly of the O.T.O. It reminds one of the views held by T. Allen Greenfield, then treasurer of the O.T.O. and his disgust at the financial improprieties and lack of ethics exhibited by William Breeze. But of course, this exposé goes beyond even that.

02/08/14 @ 15:14
Comment from: sor stellae [Visitor]

business as usual for a corrupt hierarchical organization. as always, corporate mindset and dont care about the little guy as long as they spit up the money.
Many around the world are calling for the OTO to shape up and get with the program & deliver what it says it will. Instead of just being a ladder climbing ego inflating old boy network.
people who actually do the Work dont need orgs anyway.
we must Occupy Thelema and build better associations which will serve the needs of the members rather than the top mutts. 93s

02/09/14 @ 10:34
Comment from: Psyche [Visitor]  

Thanks for sharing your account. I was disappointed in the order as well, and outlined my grievances here, if you’re interested: http://www.spiralnature.com/magick/left-ordo-templi-orientis.html

I met some great people, but the system – and the order – is fundamentally flawed.

07/11/14 @ 01:47
Comment from: surgo [Member]  

@Psyche: Cute, however the arguments you make are rather weak and uninformed; I do not see at all why an order dedicated to specific tantric teachings, which center upon the relationship of a man and a woman in particular roles, should adopt other views than these.

It makes no sense, and it would be entirely counter-productive, given that the union can be very well described as the uniting of Chokmah and Binah, from which Kether springs into view, and then the ingestion of that Kether by the participants. This simply cannot happen without the function of the man, and the form of the woman, which you seem to be arguing against.

My point is: there is no place for Social Justice bullshit within any serious mystical and/or magical system. Nobody is going to cater to you, and if you don’t like something, it’s your responsibility to either change it, or get over yourself.

93/232

07/11/14 @ 05:32
Comment from: Cass [Visitor]  

Social justice is not bullshit. It is important in any and every group and context.

She is not objecting to male and female roles, but to the idea that the females should have to be passive and degraded, and to the idea that there are less range of roles open to females than there are to males.

Also, she DID say she left when she found out it wasn’t for her, she did not try to change them like you are saying she did. Never asked to be catered to. She also said she did not hold that lodge at fault and admitted they were just carrying on the teachings they inherited.

Furthermore, you are being rude by calling her comments “cute.” Her arguments were serious and well informed. Go pick on someone your own size, coward.

You only prove the misogyny she speaks of…

02/14/15 @ 20:56
Comment from: surgo [Member]  

Cass:

>Social justice is not bullshit. It is important in any and every group
>and context.

Hardly. The concept of justice itself is flawed, and explicitly against
Thelemic principles. Law of the strong, naught else.

>She is not objecting to male and female roles, but to the idea that
>the females should have to be passive and degraded, and to the idea
>that there are less range of roles open to females than there are to
>males.

Absolutely. And I disagree with this objection, given that it straight
up goes against the founding principles of the order. It was never met
to accomodate female initiates, and it shows clearly in the structure.
Unless there is a person who is able to introduce the other side of the
traditions represented, I just don’t see it happening. And I know of
not one person who is indeed able to.

Probably someone who has been initated into the proper Tantrik lines
could. But again, this would demand their good will, and a high degree
in the O.T.O., which makes this simply not viable.

>Also, she DID say she left when she found out it wasn’t for her, she
>did not try to change them like you are saying she did.

Really? I don’t see where I said she tried to change them.

>Never asked to be catered to. She also said she did not hold that lodge
>at fault and admitted they were just carrying on the teachings they
>inherited.

And I didn’t say that she said any of it. Reading comprehension much?

>Furthermore, you are being rude by calling her comments “cute.” Her
>arguments were serious and well informed. Go pick on someone your own
>size, coward.

Heh. Why would I bother?

>You only prove the misogyny she speaks of…

And you prove that you’re not really willing to read things as they are
typed, instead seeing them in some twisted context of your own
devising.

A simple tip for the future: everything I say is literal.

02/14/15 @ 21:44
Comment from: Cass [Visitor]

I heard (read) everything you said literally. I can tell you are a misogynist and so is the OTO. It is not acceptable.

Social justice is important, because we don’t want strong people leading if they are going to cause harm. Preventing harm and pain is the purpose of morality and power and laws, not privileging the powerful. (I suppose you’re one of the deluded OTO strong-will-possessors who thinks he will end up “on top” with the other Satanic blokes when the new world system occurs so you support “law of the strong” because you think you’re strong).

Furthermore, men (and whites, and straights, etc) are not stronger. They’re privileged. Learn the difference. Having society support you and benefit you is not the same thing as being strong yourself.

Further-furthermore, when the people unite against your deluded sect and overthrow you once and for all, you’ll start whining your lily ass off about how “unfair” it is that you are on bottom and forget all about the Law of the Strong. Sore winners = sore losers.

And don’t think a shyteload of us don’t know the truth about your little pedophile rings and abuse rituals going on behind the scenes. You’re going to be sorry there ever was such a thing as the Internet because there is so much talk about the REAL Ordo templi Or. getting out there that you guys are cooked for good, and your Kabbalic puppet string pullers.

06/16/15 @ 08:39
Comment from: Cass [Visitor]

“@Psyche: Cute, however the arguments you make are rather weak and uninformed;”

Nope. Also, condescending.

“I do not see at all why an order dedicated to specific tantric teachings, which center upon the relationship of a man and a woman in particular roles, should adopt other views than these.”

Because it shouldn’t have taught these things in the first place; because the roles given to one gender (woman) are inherently subordinate and this is why the men do not want the roles abolished or switched.

If switched, or even equalized, the man would be objectified and men know how bad this is so they don’t want it to happen to them. They don’t want the roles abolished, either, because they have acquired the putrid taste of enjoying dominating someone else via sex (and then acting surprised when the dominated group of people gets turned off of sexuality).

“It makes no sense, and it would be entirely counter-productive, given that the union can be very well described as the uniting of Chokmah and Binah, from which Kether springs into view, and then the ingestion of that Kether by the participants. This simply cannot happen without the function of the man, and the form of the woman, which you seem to be arguing against.”

Man is a function; woman is a form. Man is active; woman passive. Surprise surprise.

Chokhmah and Chesed (the sides of severity) and Binah and the other sides of mercy are not oppposites. Mercy is better than severity. Also, maleness shouldn’t be associated with severity since no sex (or type of person) should. Not severity as the OTO apparently defines it.

“My point is: there is no place for Social Justice bullshit within any serious mystical and/or magical system. Nobody is going to cater to you, and if you don’t like something, it’s your responsibility to either change it, or get over yourself.”

She is changing it. That’s why she’s writing these articles. Duh.

No one wants to be catered to (except the males of the OTO! :D ) She just wants to not be demeaned or attacked or have to share a magickal experience with a bunch of people whose idea of sexuality and sex roles is tainted, ugly, hateful, and oppressive.

It would make my head spin to see how fast you and others like you would complain and whine if you didn’t get your way (like if- heaven forbid- a male were naked on the altar instead of female and the sexuality was robbed of its dominant-submissive flavor the OTO males so enjoy; they’d be screaming like little toddlers that their star was being ruined and their Will questioned and thwarted :D :D )

“93/232″

Do what thou wilt…but don’t forget there may be consequences. ;)

06/16/15 @ 08:53
Comment from: Cass [Visitor]

“Cass:

>Social justice is not bullshit. It is important in any and every group
>and context.

Hardly. The concept of justice itself is flawed, and explicitly against
Thelemic principles. Law of the strong, naught else.”

See how that works out for the world. What if the Christians took over, and oppressed Thelemites and drove them under. Would you be singing the same tune then?

>She is not objecting to male and female roles, but to the idea that
>the females should have to be passive and degraded, and to the idea
>that there are less range of roles open to females than there are to
>males.

“Absolutely. And I disagree with this objection, given that it straight
up goes against the founding principles of the order.”

…which is apparently a piece of crap.

“It was never met
to accomodate female initiates, and it shows clearly in the structure.”

…which is why it is a piece of crap. like the Freemasons, who still sometimes don’t allow blacks.

If females were allowed, though, why not at least give them a warning they will be treated poorly? Because that would scare all the p*ssy away, right?

“Unless there is a person who is able to introduce the other side of the
traditions represented, I just don’t see it happening. And I know of
not one person who is indeed able to.”

Because they were written by a piece of garbage who ate his own shyte, caused his five lovers to all break down in despair, and who wasn’t really into freedom at all. He was a high up British well to do chap who only wanted to usher in a freedom binge (the pillar of Mercy) so that the government had an excuse to squash it and instill a dictatorship (the pillar of severity). All the loosy goosy do whatever you want stuff was to attract people into created chaos that would then need to be stomped out (excuse for world government in which neither you or I will certainly play a part!)

“Probably someone who has been initated into the proper Tantrik lines
could. But again, this would demand their good will, and a high degree
in the O.T.O., which makes this simply not viable.”

Right, because the OTO, like any other group, would not allow someone to get that high into it whose beliefs were opposed to it.

>Also, she DID say she left when she found out it wasn’t for her, she
>did not try to change them like you are saying she did.

“Really? I don’t see where I said she tried to change them.”

You asked her why she didn’t just try to change the OTO rules if she wasn’t agreeing with them. And I said she is trying to change them, by writing.

>Never asked to be catered to. She also said she did not hold that lodge
>at fault and admitted they were just carrying on the teachings they
>inherited.

And I didn’t say that she said any of it. Reading comprehension much?

>Furthermore, you are being rude by calling her comments “cute.” Her
>arguments were serious and well informed. Go pick on someone your own
>size, coward.

“Heh. Why would I bother?”

You’re bothering now. I am your size and perhaps bigger.

>You only prove the misogyny she speaks of…

“And you prove that you’re not really willing to read things as they are
typed, instead seeing them in some twisted context of your own
devising.”

I don’t so much get outright misogyny from your comments, but from your lack of distaste at the nature of the OTO’s misogynistic rules.

“A simple tip for the future: everything I say is literal.”

Well, I have Aspergers so this should be easy for me. ;)

Peace. Forget about will and just take the love part of it.

06/16/15 @ 09:02
Comment from: Cass [Visitor]

Furthermore, I find it very hypocritical, though unsurprising, that you are outraged (rightfully) about your own treatment in the OTO but not the treatment of women.

Also sadly ironic is that you don’t see how Thelemic principles (do what you wilt, to the strong goes power, etc) caused and allowed the OTO to treat you this way in the first place.

06/16/15 @ 09:27
Comment from: surgo [Member]  

@Cass

Sorry it took me so long to get to you. Let me respond in kind,
since clearly you’re very touched by this issue, and it’s important
to you.

>I can tell you are a misogynist and so is the OTO. It is not
>acceptable.

How so?

>Social justice is important, because we don’t want strong people
>leading if they are going to cause harm.

You don’t need social justice in order not to have harmful people in
charge. It’s a logical fallacy.

>Preventing harm and pain is the purpose of morality and power and
>laws, not privileging the powerful.

I didn’t know either of those things had a purpose. I’ll be very
excited to know how you arrived at your conclusions. Besides,
privilege is like money: you can always use more of it. So why the
facade?

>(I suppose you’re one of the deluded OTO strong-will-possessors who
>thinks he will end up “on top” with the other Satanic blokes when
>the new world system occurs so you support “law of the strong”
>because you think you’re strong).

Yup. It shows that your reading comprehension is at best at 6th
grade level. If anything, I’m one of the weakest folks around, if
you know what I mean };)

>Furthermore, men (and whites, and straights, etc) are not stronger.

Interestingly, I never made that argument. They’re certainly the
target group of the OTO, however, so your point is kind of, you
know, moot. If you want a more egalitarian and feminine group which
isn’t exploring Islamic (!) traditions as the OTO is, go ahead and
find one. Nobody’s forcing you to stay where you don’t want to be.

>They’re privileged. Learn the difference.

Uh, privileged in what way? Being able to join mass every Sunday or
whenever it’s scheduled and do some rituals?

>Having society support you and benefit you is not the same thing as
>being strong yourself.

Of course. However it does contribute to personal power, and
influence, which makes the people who are in good standing in a
given society quite a bit more valuable and well-respected than
people who are not.

>Further-furthermore, when the people unite against your deluded sect

(Just a note that I’m not a member of the OTO here, nor any other sect)

>and overthrow you once and for all, you’ll start whining your lily
>ass off about how “unfair” it is that you are on bottom and forget
>all about the Law of the Strong. Sore winners = sore losers.

Oh? Whenever did I whine about things being unfair? Whatever
happened to me has been entirely out of either my own fault or
carelessness. This is also what the article you’re commenting on
says, by the way.

>And don’t think a shyteload of us don’t know the truth about your
>little pedophile rings and abuse rituals going on behind the scenes.

Hey, I’m not associated with the OTO. It’s public knowledge at this
point that Wasserman was (is?) associating with John Moro; why not
go and take it out on him instead of throwing a hissy fit on my
blog, eh?

>You’re going to be sorry there ever was such a thing as the
>Internet because there is so much talk about the REAL Ordo templi
>Or. getting out there that you guys are cooked for good, and your
>Kabbalic puppet string pullers.

Bitch please, you’re deluded. Take your meds, get out, eat fresh,
and exercise. It’ll stabilize your moods. Be thankful I see you’re
ill, or you’d have a huge-ass lawsuit up your ass already. I don’t
take kindly to being called a pedo.

>>“@Psyche: Cute, however the arguments you make are rather weak and
>>uninformed;”

>Nope. Also, condescending.

Indeed, uninformed. You didn’t even take the time to check whom
you’re talking to. Get your shit straight.

>>“I do not see at all why an order dedicated to specific tantric
>>teachings, which center upon the relationship of a man and a woman
>>in particular roles, should adopt other views than these.”

>Because it shouldn’t have taught these things in the first place;

Who are you to say what it ought to teach or not? I don’t see how
you have any authority to make that call, either.

>because the roles given to one gender (woman) are inherently
>subordinate and this is why the men do not want the roles abolished
>or switched.

You do realize that the OTO was founded in a particular time, right?
And that only recently have more tantrik techniques come to light
regarding the female side of the equation, correct? Furthermore, the
Islamic myth of the OTO sort of prevents your vision from coming
true, since in Islam… women are property. Don’t like it? Get out.
Simple as that.

>If switched, or even equalized, the man would be objectified and
>men know how bad this is so they don’t want it to happen to them.

I don’t mind being objectified personally, but I wouldn’t know. I
mean, if you’re objectified you get an easy life, don’t you? How
many trophy wives are there in the world? How many gold-diggers?

You don’t see that kind of behavior in the male populace, so I’m
just going to leave things at that.

>They don’t want the roles abolished, either, because they have
>acquired the putrid taste of enjoying dominating someone else via
>sex (and then acting surprised when the dominated group of people
>gets turned off of sexuality).

I admittedly perversely enjoy domming, however I wouldn’t call my
taste putrid at all. We enjoy ourselves, and I also enjoy making the
girl as happy as she can be. You know. What you’d call a partnership
– apparently that’s not what your goal is, however, so perhaps
you’d like to elaborate on your actual motivations?

>>“It makes no sense, and it would be entirely counter-productive,
>>given that the union can be very well described as the uniting of
>>Chokmah and Binah, from which Kether springs into view, and then the
>>ingestion of that Kether by the participants. This simply cannot
>>happen without the function of the man, and the form of the woman,
>>which you seem to be arguing against.”

>Man is a function; woman is a form. Man is active; woman passive.
>Surprise surprise.

Surprise surprise, it went entirely over your head. Perhaps at least
attempt to contextualize the things you’re reading within a
discussion?

>Chokhmah and Chesed (the sides of severity) and Binah and the other
>sides of mercy are not oppposites.

Factual error: Chokmah-Chesed-Netzach are the side of Mercy. Chesed
= Mercy, you know. Get your shit straight.

Binah-Geburah-Hod are the Pillar of Severity. This is a pretty darn
pathetic argument from a femini– oh. What else could I expect? };)

>Mercy is better than severity.

Absolutely! Man-power! YEAH!

>Also, maleness shouldn’t be associated with severity since no sex
>(or type of person) should. Not severity as the OTO apparently
>defines it.

I’m entirely unaware of how the OTO defines it, however yes,
severity is a very feminine trait. I mean, most domestic abuse is
perpetrated by women, so it fits, right?

>>“My point is: there is no place for Social Justice bullshit within
>>any serious mystical and/or magical system. Nobody is going to cater
>>to you, and if you don’t like something, it’s your responsibility to
>>either change it, or get over yourself.”

>She is changing it. That’s why she’s writing these articles. Duh.

?

>No one wants to be catered to (except the males of the OTO! :D )

Pretty sure everybody does. To think otherwise is naive and childish.

>She just wants to not be demeaned or attacked or have to share a
>magickal experience with a bunch of people whose idea of sexuality
>and sex roles is tainted, ugly, hateful, and oppressive.

Well, go and do Wicca instead. The OTO and Thelema won’t change to
fit your idea of “nice and pleasant".

>It would make my head spin to see how fast you and others like you
>would complain and whine if you didn’t get your way

Oh, totally. It’s not like you’re not whining about not getting your
way right now… is it? Perhaps stop being a hypocrite and just grow
up?

>(like if- heaven forbid- a male were naked on the altar instead of
>female and the sexuality was robbed of its dominant-submissive
>flavor the OTO males so enjoy; they’d be screaming like little
>toddlers that their star was being ruined and their Will questioned
>and thwarted :D :D )

I get it. You hate sex. And god forbid someone spanks you during, or
they’ll get one hell of an earful about being oppressive shitlords
for promoting the BDSM lifestyle. I honestly can’t even hold all
these keks. There’s like forty of them.

>Do what thou wilt…but don’t forget there may be consequences. ;)

Don’t forget you’re an oppressive SJW with no concept of personal
dignity.

>>>Social justice is not bullshit. It is important in any and every
>>>group and context.

>>Hardly. The concept of justice itself is flawed, and explicitly
>>against Thelemic principles. Law of the strong, naught else.”

>See how that works out for the world. What if the Christians took
>over, and oppressed Thelemites and drove them under. Would you be
>singing the same tune then?

I am. Thelemites are fucked over by their own kin currently, and
there’s no end in sight. Far as I care, if someone dies, they died,
done. Why would I invest my time or effort in something which
doesn’t benefit me or the people I care about? That’d be insane.

>>>She is not objecting to male and female roles, but to the idea that
>>>the females should have to be passive and degraded, and to the idea
>>>that there are less range of roles open to females than there are to
>>>males.

>>“Absolutely. And I disagree with this objection, given that it straight
>>up goes against the founding principles of the order.”

>…which is apparently a piece of crap.

Well, it is. Can’t help it. It is what it is though, and if you want
to change it, you better get ready for a huge cup of Down-To-Earth.

>>“It was never met to accomodate female initiates, and it shows
>>clearly in the structure.”

>…which is why it is a piece of crap. like the Freemasons, who still
>sometimes don’t allow blacks.

Which is a good thing actually. “Diversity” and “multiculturalism”
are endangering native cultures all over Europe, and I’m supposed to
promote this shit? Hell no.

As for allowing females in, there’s several different denominations
of Masonry which are for women. Don’t like it? Make your own.

>If females were allowed, though, why not at least give them a
>warning they will be treated poorly? Because that would scare all
>the p*ssy away, right?

I’m not aware of any women being treated poorly just because they’re
women, with the exception of the few who got caught up in the DRW
and DT case. As for pussy… I don’t know. My camp had 5 dudes, and
no women. Then I got kicked, and things have been pretty chill ever
since.

I hear they actually fell out recently because nobody wanted to
actually put any effort into things.

>>Unless there is a person who is able to introduce the other side
>>of the traditions represented, I just don’t see it happening. And I
>>know of not one person who is indeed able to.”

>Because they were written by a piece of garbage who ate his own
>shyte, caused his five lovers to all break down in despair, and who
>wasn’t really into freedom at all.

Why do you even care about the OTO at all then? Are you stuck in
some self-defeating trance or what?

>He was a high up British well to do chap who only wanted to usher
>in a freedom binge (the pillar of Mercy) so that the government had
>an excuse to squash it and instill a dictatorship (the pillar of
>severity).

If you only knew how much garbage you just typed, you’d be ashamed.
That said, yes, Crowley had many weird and far-out ideas.

>All the loosy goosy do whatever you want stuff was to attract
>people into created chaos that would then need to be stomped out
>(excuse for world government in which neither you or I will
>certainly play a part!)

Excuse me, your ignorance of basic Thelemic ideas is showing. You
might want to cover that up and not let others see, it’s in bad taste.

Seriously though. Get your shit straight. You can’t even type
coherently, and you (probably?) expect to be taken seriously. Which
isn’t going to happen.

>>“Probably someone who has been initated into the proper Tantrik
>>lines could. But again, this would demand their good will, and a
>>high degree in the O.T.O., which makes this simply not viable.”

>Right, because the OTO, like any other group, would not allow
>someone to get that high into it whose beliefs were opposed to it.

Not an issue with the OTO as such, however a huge issue with the
current leadership. Again, your ignorance is showing. Perhaps
actually do some research sometimes?

>>>Also, she DID say she left when she found out it wasn’t for her, she
>>>did not try to change them like you are saying she did.

>>“Really? I don’t see where I said she tried to change them.”

>You asked her why she didn’t just try to change the OTO rules if
>she wasn’t agreeing with them. And I said she is trying to change
>them, by writing.

Oh wow. Yeah. Writing. That’s going to change a lot.

>>Never asked to be catered to. She also said she did not hold that lodge
>>at fault and admitted they were just carrying on the teachings they
>>inherited.

>And I didn’t say that she said any of it. Reading comprehension much?

What you said doesn’t matter, it was a clarification. Do you even
know how a discussion works?

>>>Furthermore, you are being rude by calling her comments “cute.” Her
>>>arguments were serious and well informed. Go pick on someone your own
>>>size, coward.

>>“Heh. Why would I bother?”

>You’re bothering now. I am your size and perhaps bigger.

An SJW who thinks they’re privileged enough to talk to me? How quaint.

>>>You only prove the misogyny she speaks of…

>>“And you prove that you’re not really willing to read things as they
>>are typed, instead seeing them in some twisted context of your own
>>devising.”

>I don’t so much get outright misogyny from your comments, but from
>your lack of distaste at the nature of the OTO’s misogynistic rules.

Why would I find them distasteful? They’re old-fashioned, sure, but
that’s the core of the group, that’s what it stands on.

>>“A simple tip for the future: everything I say is literal.”

>Well, I have Aspergers so this should be easy for me. ;)

Evidently not, given your lack of reasoning and emotionally
disturbed reactions.

>Peace. Forget about will and just take the love part of it.

Yeah, no. War is where it’s at.

>Furthermore, I find it very hypocritical, though unsurprising, that
>you are outraged (rightfully) about your own treatment in the OTO
>but not the treatment of women.

Except I’m not outraged at my treatment. It’s a logical and rational
series of events. What I am outraged at is the profound dishonesty
which permeates every level of the order.

>Also sadly ironic is that you don’t see how Thelemic principles (do
>what you wilt, to the strong goes power, etc) caused and allowed the
>OTO to treat you this way in the first place.

Indeed ironic that you don’t see this in the article, and then try
to play this exact card on me. Oh wait. You’re stupid, I forgot.
Sorry, won’t happen again.

93/810
S.

08/21/15 @ 06:11